WE DISCUSS VANA'DIEL
#13 Koji Aoyama Part 2

Mr. Aoyama, what made you move to Square (now Square Enix) in 1999?

FFVII had me awed, which was one reason. For example, FFVII reads movie data from the CD-ROM and plays it back, which was an amazing feat that took advantage of CD-ROMs’ large data capacity. I got the impression that Square was capable of making the most of cutting-edge technology in their work. I’d always wanted to make the best game in the world too, so I conveyed that desire to Square in my application.

Did you have an easy time getting into Square?

I haven’t talked about this very often, but my application was actually rejected once. My initial application included all my technical skills and patents, which I submitted with a lot of confidence. However, I received a rejection letter from Square’s game development division.

But about a month after that, I received a job offer from their patent office, where they conducted meetings with programmers and confirmed what technology was patentable, similar to what legal affairs and intellectual property management divisions do today. I was 30 years old, which was considered the retirement age for programmers at the time; on top of that, I also owned several patents myself, so I thought, “Maybe it’s time for me to move on to patenting,” and accepted the offer.

Oh my! (laughs)

I had a lighthearted mindset going into the job, but working with patents turned out to be grueling work and far more specialized than I’d expected. I still stuck with it for about a year, but eventually reached my limit and approached my supervisor about quitting. However, since my work had me frequently keep in touch with the programming staff in our company, the leader of the technology development division invited me to join them instead.

That’s how I ended up in a team for researching and developing cutting-edge technology, but I guess it was because I was recognized for my business acumen, not for my technical skills. At the Square Millennium Event*, Mr. Sakaguchi* had mentioned a future need for “programmers who also understand business,” and when I asked our division lead what he meant by that, they replied, “He was talking about you.” (laughs) Now that I mention it, I must’ve been noticed for my ability to communicate well, rather than for my programming abilities.

In various interviews, you’ve mentioned that Square excels at production with large teams. What were your impressions when you first joined the company?

I wasn’t paying attention to Square as closely before I joined, but when I was hired on, I was surprised by how their producers were considered an executive role. Square’s producers carried a completely different authority compared to those at my previous job, with people like Mr. Hiromichi* commanding an enormous amount of power. The company structure promoted the betterment of games, and I thought its leaders like Mr. Hiromichi and Mr. Matsuno* had a careful eye on the entire organization and were managing it very well. Joining Square reinforced my appreciation for the massive corporations and administrative know-how required when creating large-scale games like FFVII.

Although we were capable of producing major titles, I personally didn’t think our company’s administration was very good. Perhaps it’s because I have no other organization to compare it to, since Square was the first company I joined. Let’s say we carried out a project requiring 30 to 40 staff members; if our next project were to require about 200 members, we would’ve been like, “Oh, that just means we need five times as many people as last time.” In reality, however, going from 40 to 200 members doesn’t simply equate to five times as much output; there’s the question of how effectively we can prevent details from getting lost when conveying information within the team. Back in the day, if Mr. Sakaguchi announced that a game’s specifications were changed, everyone groaned but still managed to pull through. If something like that were to happen nowadays in a project with 200 people, it would be a disaster. (laughs)

But I don’t think corporations typically get anywhere when they have teams that large. It’s quite amazing how Square was able to function properly even with the size of their teams.

By the way, when did you two first meet?

It actually wasn’t when I joined Square, but much earlier, in April 1986. Do you remember, Mr. Matsui?

Actually, Mr. Kasuga* mentioned that you and I went to the same university. When I asked him, “What year?” he answered “1986,” which is how I found out we were in the same year. (laughs)

So you both attended Tokyo Institute of Technology in the same year.

That’s right. We were even in the same department and class of 170 students, but weren’t directly acquainted. I’m sure we all introduced ourselves early on in the year, but we both didn’t realize we’d met before until about 20 years later. Incidentally, I also don’t really remember where we met after I joined the company…

I was part of the planning staff but ended up doing my own programming, so I was on our company’s programmer mailing list. That’s where I saw your name, and we all assembled for the programmers’ regular meeting, so I’d assume I ran into you there as well.

We didn’t have an opportunity to personally work together until a while after that.

When we had an overnight seminar at the office, during the evening party, I remember discussing with Mr. Aoyama about what programming language would be most suitable for our kids to start with. I suggested assembly code, since we’d started from that, and it allowed us to know how code is processed in the end. But Mr. Aoyama felt that it didn’t matter what programming language our kids learned from, since programmers nowadays know their way around GPUs with no knowledge of assembly code.

Yes, that sounds like something I would’ve said.

I don’t know if it was thanks to that conversation, but my eldest son is a programmer now. (laughs)

My son didn’t follow that path. I gave him a PC when he was in third grade and personally taught him programming since fourth grade, but perhaps that contributed to why he loathes it nowadays. (laughs wryly) Admittedly, I might’ve started teaching him too early. He still comes to me with questions about his programming course in high school. That said, he still insists that he hates it…

Incidentally, what were your impressions of each other around the time you had that discussion?

The mailing list, which I mentioned earlier, included the primary leader-class programmers, including those for POL, and each had their own way of doing things. I had the impression that Mr. Aoyama was able to bring them all together in a very organized fashion. He managed to unify people with such unique, or rather, strong senses of individuality and carry out the project, which was impressive.

Well, it was actually Mr. Narita* who had everything under control.

There definitely was a sense of security in knowing that Mr. Narita was there for us in a pinch. That said, I remember you were the one usually coordinating everything.

I’m flattered to hear that’s how I was perceived. To be honest, things were really tough for me back then. (laughs) Some of Square’s best programmers from past hits were assigned to FFXI, but they’d bicker among themselves about whose method was right.

Not to mention how they didn’t mince their words in a lot of those exchanges. (laughs) I always felt very timid being in the same mailing list and attending meetings with that crowd.

From my end, you and other planning members seemed like pros who could do anything, even programming. You seemed particularly exceptional, and I reckoned someone with your amazing capabilities would typically be considered a programmer in other companies.

I can’t keep up with the hardware side of programming at all, so in that sense, I’d say I have a relatively limited knowledge of programming.

So you say, but what’s crucial is that self-awareness of your own abilities. For example, if I were interviewing fresh graduates and asked, “How much do you know about programming?” and one of them answered, “Well, hardware is outside my expertise,” I’d consider them to be an excellent candidate. Programmers who have a grasp on the overall gist of how the hardware works will never run into a situation where they say, “I can’t explain this code, but the program works as intended!” So the fact that someone can confidently answer “I don’t know,” is evidence of their high proficiency.